Legitimate and logical question

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Legitimate and logical question

Anonymous
I have a question for you guys here. and its one i mean to spark a logical debate about and raise concerns about player actions. Now while I can hope that it would make you think I do know that it being the internet and human nature the readers of this are likely to not even consider any of this and even think this is a joke. as for the responses to this question i would like for them to be concise Logical and relevant answers. Nothing that would make the response make it seem like the New Order of high-sec is little more than an in-game Cult. Now for the question:

In my short time of playing as i have only been on for little more than a month in this game I am still learning many of the things possible in this game. I suck at fitting ships for any purpose save for mining which is rather straightforward and doesn't have much variation besides the fittings for whether your mining Ice, Gas, or Ore. However regardless of anything else in the game i have found mining to be rather fun, Oddly this is the only game I've played where I can be content for spending hours on it just mining. The point of my question and I would like to make it longer but it wouldn't get many reading it is this, by what power is it that you people think you have that would allow you to dictate to the other players how they are supposed to be playing this game? I understand that you don't like bots, many people who play this game or any MMO don't like people who cheat and they play by the rules to get what they have. why do you think you have the authority to tell someone that they can play a game in the way that they enjoy playing it? What makes you different from any other type of terrorist group?

as for clarification of my last question it is this, the definition of terrorism is this: "the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion" so while yes it is a comparison to the real world it is also all in of its own as being online. Many things can fall under this category. However from my viewpoint what makes you anything better than petty Bullies and griefers in game?
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Aleksa Mayhap
If I understand your questions correctly, I'll sum them up as:

1) What gives us the power to enforce our vision of high-sec on others?

2) Isn't what you're doing terrorism?

We can be short about question 2. By the dictionary definition you provided, yes, our actions constitute terrorism. So do those of the angry-looking lady who keeps people quiet in the library. Using the fear of reprisal to motivate people into a certain mode of behavior is the cornerstone upon which all civilization is built.

As for question 1, let us for a moment step beyond the democratic election of James 315. Let us step beyond the fact that our actions are sanctioned by CONCORD and CCP. Let us step beyond the obvious moral superiority of the Code. Let us look at the one very simple thing that lets us dictate the fate of high-sec: effort.

The Code is not something that can simply be laid down, or it would be as meaningless as the blogs that threaten to end us. It must be carried to all corners of high-sec on the prows of our Stabbers. It must be enforced through the barrels of our Catalysts. It must be upheld with the sweat of our brows and the dedication of our hearts. Power defaults to those who invest the effort to wield it.

We have power because we work for it. It's that simple.
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Anonymous
However there is one problem i see with your explanation there, are your actions sanctioned by Concored in game? I don't think they are as if they were you would have no need of suicide ganking in order to do what you think your doing. and as for CCP are they not considering changing some of the combat rules which allow for suicide ganking? at least that is what i'm gathering from my own research and the many rumors that abound on the internet. Im sorry i still fail to see how you are all taking the stance that you have the moral highground here when tbh it just seems like you all delight in just being antagonistic to those whom you know cant do anything against you I.E. Petty bullies.

I'm just someone who is still trying to figure you guys out
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Melissa Cesaille
 One of the things that makes us different is our inclusiveness. We seek to educate and teach, and enlighten those who would listen. We seek to enable gameplay in a fashion that people may find inaccessable.

 Take me, for instance. In my short time of skill training, I have only learned a few skills; but as a Knight I am learning so many of the things possible in this game. I suck at fitting ships for any purpose save for ganking which is rather straightforward and doesn't have much variation in the fitting unless you're fitting for locking time, warp scrambling, or more dps.

 However, regardless of anything else in the game, I have found ganking to be extremely fun. Oddly, this is the only game I've played where I can be content with spending hours in it just ganking. In addition to being a welcoming group of intelligent, sophisticated people, the New Order allows me to apply my skills as a ganker in a way that furthers a cause, a true cause, above and beyond the simple pleasure of watching someone learn a quick, easy lesson in what is possible in this game.
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Anonymous
That personally just seems to be reinforcing my statement earlier of just being antagonistic. nor does it even skirt anything along the lines of answering my previous questions. it would be nice to stay on topic here. as I said I am trying to figure you guys out and so far what i'm seeing doesn't put your group into that nice of a light. How do you intend to force people to do what you want them to do and not have anything blow back on you? whether this be a game or reality stuff like that has been proven to never work. Humans don't like being told what to do. but help them in a constructive manner rather than a destructive like what were seeing here seems to historically be the better option.
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Aleksa Mayhap
In reply to this post by Anonymous
CONCORD allows our Knights to operate at the cost of their ships and their sec status - it's a fair trade. And CONCORD of course does nothing to oppose bumpers. While the Knights may have been getting a lot of press lately, do not forget that there are still fast ships out there separating non-compliant miners from their rocks and ice.

As for CCP, they have repeatedly come out and stated that suicide ganking is working as intended. They adjust the consequences and/or the challenge every now and then, but the practice itself is well within their vision of EVE as a game.

And our moral high ground - I invite you to read the Code, and read it carefully. What do we really want from our miners? Ten million ISK is a pittance. The bumper sticker is a convenience. What we're really after is turning every single high-sec miner into a healthy, happy gamer who interacts with other players in what is, after all, an MMO. Who could be against that?
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Anonymous
See now that's a response i can appreciate and respect. though I do wholly disagree with your methods of trying to achieve your goal and will refuse to even pay you one ISK for me to play a game the way i wish to. It doesn't change the fact that You unlike the previous person actually came in with a logical and understandable argument for your side of the goings on. rather than just coming off as a Bully like the previous poster, However like i said while trying to understand you guys doesn't mean in any way that i support you guys. But it does give me motivation to learn another aspect of this game if for just trying to disrupt your ganking attempts when i can.
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Bing Bangboom
  You are still free to attempt to mine and thus play in the way you want to.  Understand however, that the nature of Eve is that EVERYTHING is pvp and so, it is legitimate for anyone to oppose you in your efforts.  Even your innocuous mining is, in fact, market pvp.  You are competing against the other sources of the material you produce for the ISK of your potential customers.  If you mine for your own use, you are depriving other miners of a sale.  This is the root of everything in Eve.

  Some players, the most egregious being the highsec miners, have demanded that CCP provide them with a low risk, high reward activity.  They choose afk mining where they put a valuable ship and pod into space for the express purpose of making ISK while not paying attention.  Then, when the Agents and Knights of the New Order arrive and conduct our form of market pvp on them, they cry foul to us, CCP and anyone within the sound of their, uh, typing.

  If you think what we do is somehow not what is intended in this dark, dangerous space pvp game then I would recommend that you not only study The Code but read James 315's essays on highsec safety found in the Links portion of www.minerbumping.com.  Starting with "The Truth Behind the Exhumer Rebalancing" and continuing in the following two documents you will see that we are using the tools that CCP has provided us to play Eve the way WE want to attain a worthy goal.  

  In Eve, you can TRY to play the way you want.  It is the express nature of the game for everyone else to TRY and stop you.  If the miners who oppose us by demanding more and more nerfs to Highsec pvp are successful the game will be changed, in our opinion, in a greatly negative manner.

  Do you want to play a game where people are actually prevented from doing what we do?  Do you want CCP to step and and "save" the afk miners?  Do you really want someone to think "there is no risk, I will walk away and leave my ship mining here while I walk the dog, do the laundry, sleep?

  Not us thank you.  We don't want that game and, for as long as we are around, it won't be.

Bing Bangboom
Agent of the New Order of Highsec
Belligerent Undesirable
Highsec is worth fighting for.
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Manny Moons
In reply to this post by Anonymous
We are all free to play the game as we choose.  The price of that freedom is that every other player also has it.  We cannot stop other players from playing the game as they choose. It's a two-way street, so consider it not only from your own perspective, but also from ours.

You may have strong feelings about botting, as we do, or you may not. You may support the New Order, or you may abhor it. You may even think the New Order is a bigger problem than botting. Your choice. You are free to deal with it in any way you choose. You know the New Order exists in the game you are playing. You know what its goals are, and the strategy and tactics it uses. It is a transparent organization that publishes every detail of its operations and intentions.

You are free to choose to ignore the New Order and to mine without a permit as much as you like. But just as you know belt rats are a part of the game, you know the New Order is part of the game.  You should not be surprised if ignoring either can result in negative consequences.

To your point, the New Order does not really dictate how you play. It introduces a set of conditions into the game that may cause you to choose to change the way you play.  If you really feel terrorized, then maybe you should work on separating game from reality. Some say Eve is real, and I know first hand how being attacked in Eve can trigger the same biological response as a real-life, physical confrontation. The adrenaline dump, the rapid heartbeat, and the sweaty, shaking hands. Excitement and fear, even though it is just a game. A game primarily focused on the destruction of imaginary spaceships, in which destruction of your imaginary spaceship should not come as a big surprise.

I have only been playing Eve for a few months, but interestingly, the two things that have most helped me get comfortable with being attacked are (1) the Tuskers Frigate Free-For-All, and (2) becoming a Knight of the New Order. I highly recommend both.  But if you only want to mine and minimize player interaction, the New Order has provided simple steps to allow you to do just that.







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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Galaxy_Pig
Thank you for you interest in the New Order of Highsec,

"by what power is it that you people think you have that would allow you to dictate to the other players how they are supposed to be playing this game?"

Answer: Anti-matter. (And we don't just think we have it, we really do.)


"why do you think you have the authority to tell someone that they can play a game in the way that they enjoy playing it?"

This is just a reiteration of your first question. Power is authority, and once again the answer is anti-matter. Faction anti-matter s rounds to be specific, and we don't just think we have them, we really do, lots. They give us the power to destroy your mining vessel, which we use to enforce our authority over Highsec mining.

 
"What makes you different from any other type of terrorist group?"

Aside from the many glaring differences that have already been outlined, I would have to say the most stark contrast one notices when meeting a NO knight compared to, say, a member of the Hamas militant group, is that most of us bathe more or less regularly.


"Im sorry i still fail to see how you are all taking the stance that you have the moral highground here when tbh it just seems like you all delight in just being antagonistic to those whom you know cant do anything against you I.E. Petty bullies."

In fact we know they could do something against us if they wanted to, but they won't. They refuse to defend themselves, is that our fault?


"How do you intend to force people to do what you want them to do and not have anything blow back on you?"

Again, with anti-matter. Anti-matter is like a cure all, apply liberally to code-violators/resistance fighters until affected area is cured. It has worked so far, as no serious resistance worth mentioning has yet arise, nor do we expect the greater AFK community to wake up tomorrow with new-found dignity and initiative.

I hope these answer have helped you understand the legitimacy of our laws, and that your interest in the New Order continues.

-Galaxy Pig
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Titus Phook
1) What gives us the power to enforce our vision of high-sec on others?

CCP gave everybody in Eve the same tools and mechanics, the New Order uses the tools and mechanics provided to place systems under their control, and to promote their vision. The power lies in the tools provided and how they're used. We can and quite regularly do shut down ice mining ops in entire solar systems, normally with the Antimatter Ship Washâ„¢, we're not the first to do it, and we won't be the last, but we're probably the first to have a Code.

2) Isn't what you're doing terrorism?

IRL terms, yes. In terms of the game, nope, what we're doing is acceptable behaviour in Eve, any misconceptions from other games about griefing should get left at the door. 99% of what will get you banned in other MMOs is totally acceptable in Eve, scamming, corp(guild) theft and the random ganking of people for lulz is the norm, not the exception.
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Re: Legitimate and logical question

Melissa Cesaille
I think I get it. You're asking how we can expect to enforce our goals without repurcussions.

Quite simply, if there are any repurcussions, then our goals are being achieved.

If miners take up arms and rebel, however hopeless such a cause may be, then good, because inspiring such gameplay is our goal. If they get in catalysts and join the war on automatons, then good, because inspiring such gameplay is our goal.

I apologise if I sounded standoffish in my previous post, I was trying to draw a juxtaposition between you wanting to play a sandbox game the way you want to, me wanting to play a sandbox game the way I want to, and the futility of declaring my way 'wrong' just because of how some in game mechanics work. Just because shield-tanked missile boats are arguably the best way to run missions, it doesn't make a player 'wrong' for missioning in an armor tanked gun boat, just different.