Local Logs - A Conversation with castle2 keep

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Local Logs - A Conversation with castle2 keep

Agent Eunoli
Sometimes when I have a few minutes of downtime I like to engage the dissidents in local for the sake of those innocents who don't understand who the 'real' enemy is.  Naturally, the New Order of Highsec is there to support and promote active miners everywhere.  We are the good guys.

This is rather long!

TLDR:  We make some progress with castle2 keep - in that he reluctantly agrees that miner ganking is not griefing and is part of EVE Online gameplay.

[quote=Local]
[ 2013.01.28 17:29:25 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli u make up laws then try 2 make ppl obay them
[ 2013.01.28 17:29:42 ] Agent Eunoli > We provide a framework of law and Order to operate within under all systems in our jurisdiction (all of Highsec)
[ 2013.01.28 17:30:08 ] Agent Eunoli > Within that legal framework we have provisions for mining legally and this permission is granted in the form of a permit.
[ 2013.01.28 17:30:11 ] castle2 keep > no thats what concord is for
[ 2013.01.28 17:30:19 ] Agent Eunoli > Much like you needing a parking permit to park in a parking lot.
[ 2013.01.28 17:30:27 ] Agent Eunoli > Or, in some locations, having a pet permit to own a pet.
[ 2013.01.28 17:30:43 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli its not us parking lot tho
[ 2013.01.28 17:31:01 ] castle2 keep > hi sec can not be claimed
[ 2013.01.28 17:31:04 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep no, that's not entirely correct.  CONCORD only provides a partial enforcement mechanism for EVE.
[ 2013.01.28 17:31:12 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep everything can be claimed.  This is EVE.
[ 2013.01.28 17:31:36 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep the question is can it be HELD.
[ 2013.01.28 17:31:43 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli no only imtemdated to beleave its claimed
[ 2013.01.28 17:32:11 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep that's what governments are.  People accepting the rule of law.
[ 2013.01.28 17:32:26 ] Agent Eunoli > The people of Highsec elected James 315 to be their saviour and leader.
[ 2013.01.28 17:32:50 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > oh really?
[ 2013.01.28 17:32:53 ] Agent Eunoli > He has taken this mandate from the masses of the electorate and brought the New Order to make Highsec a better place.
[ 2013.01.28 17:33:02 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > when was this election? how come i didn't get to vote?
[ 2013.01.28 17:33:05 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli ur no gavermant...that implays u hold a admin lvl of game play
[ 2013.01.28 17:33:06 ] Agent Eunoli > Lucious Seigfried Veyl the details of all of this are clearly laid out at www.minerbumping.com
[ 2013.01.28 17:33:32 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > no they aren't
[ 2013.01.28 17:33:39 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > it's not clear at all
[ 2013.01.28 17:33:54 ] castle2 keep > Lucious Seigfried Veyl is right i red it
[ 2013.01.28 17:34:03 ] Agent Eunoli > Lucious Seigfried Veyl there are, I believe, two posts about the election.
[ 2013.01.28 17:34:16 ] Agent Eunoli > Plus there is a section in the Code that refers to the election.
[ 2013.01.28 17:34:30 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > it's a bunch of sidestepping with fancy words to confuse people who don't know what they mean. to the few people who DO know what those words mean it's a load of bull
[ 2013.01.28 17:34:53 ] Agent Eunoli > Lucious Seigfried Veyl actually, the people who DO know what those words mean know it's true.
[ 2013.01.28 17:35:08 ] castle2 keep > lol a election must be held by the govering athourty and must be made news so all get a chance to vote
[ 2013.01.28 17:35:15 ] Agent Eunoli > There is a reason why dissenters and resistance is such a small number.
[ 2013.01.28 17:35:29 ] castle2 keep > ccp never hosted a vote
[ 2013.01.28 17:35:45 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > right, i'm done with this discussion. it's obvious that talking to you is getting nowhere, you're too brainwashed.
[ 2013.01.28 17:35:48 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep you have a very naive and innocent view of how governments are formed.  Please, keep it.
[ 2013.01.28 17:35:56 ] Lucious Seigfried Veyl > i'm gona go play mass effect for a while
[ 2013.01.28 17:36:12 ] Agent Eunoli > Lucious Seigfried Veyl by all means, enjoy.
[ 2013.01.28 17:36:32 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli i no wat govermangs r and i no ur not one
[ 2013.01.28 17:36:42 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > *what
[ 2013.01.28 17:36:46 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep if you knew whta goverments are, you'd know that we -are- one.
[ 2013.01.28 17:36:48 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > *Governents
[ 2013.01.28 17:36:56 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > *are
[ 2013.01.28 17:37:07 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep you've made me curious though.  What do -you- think governments are?
[ 2013.01.28 17:37:09 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > USA#1
[ 2013.01.28 17:37:13 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > USA#1
[ 2013.01.28 17:37:41 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli govermants r put in to power this is not erth the world of eve is owned by ccp
[ 2013.01.28 17:38:17 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep what is power?
[ 2013.01.28 17:38:51 ] castle2 keep > like the usa has the right 2 arest u if u bteak a law
[ 2013.01.28 17:39:06 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > nope we are land of the free
[ 2013.01.28 17:39:16 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep okay, so a government is something that has the power to punish people who break the law?
[ 2013.01.28 17:39:29 ] castle2 keep > ccp has the right 2 BAN your accont feom the game if u break there laws
[ 2013.01.28 17:39:33 ] Babatunde B Babatunde > In russia everyone is illegal
[ 2013.01.28 17:40:12 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli yes
[ 2013.01.28 17:40:34 ] castle2 keep > tho gangs try to do this them selvs
[ 2013.01.28 17:40:49 ] castle2 keep > and they r no govermant
[ 2013.01.28 17:40:51 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep so, by your definition, the New Order of Highsec is a government.
[ 2013.01.28 17:40:54 ] Agent Eunoli > But you just said so.
[ 2013.01.28 17:41:01 ] Agent Eunoli > There is a set of laws (the Code)
[ 2013.01.28 17:41:06 ] Agent Eunoli > people who break the law are punished.
[ 2013.01.28 17:41:28 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli > There is a set of laws (the Code) made by who?
[ 2013.01.28 17:41:41 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep does it matter?
[ 2013.01.28 17:41:59 ] Agent Eunoli > The answer is by James 315, who was elected in a fair and just election, to be the leader of Highsec.
[ 2013.01.28 17:42:03 ] castle2 keep > gangs make laws and codes y r they not gavermants?
[ 2013.01.28 17:42:19 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep well, that depends what you are saying is a gang here.
[ 2013.01.28 17:42:36 ] castle2 keep > real life gangs
[ 2013.01.28 17:42:38 ] Agent Eunoli > A community that comes together and agrees to follow a set or rules becomes a City.
[ 2013.01.28 17:42:46 ] Agent Eunoli > That City is a goverment.
[ 2013.01.28 17:42:58 ] Agent Eunoli > A tribe that has a leader who sets the rules is a goverment.
[ 2013.01.28 17:43:12 ] Agent Eunoli > Give me an example of a "real life gang."
[ 2013.01.28 17:43:34 ] Agent Eunoli > I think the issue that you are confused with is establishing rule of law and subverting the law through criminal acts.
[ 2013.01.28 17:43:49 ] castle2 keep > ok
[ 2013.01.28 17:44:29 ] castle2 keep > blood, KKK bkalk panthers i thank i got the last name right
[ 2013.01.28 17:45:34 ] Agent Eunoli > Okay, those are reasonable for organizations.  The reasons they are considered to be 'gangs' is because they are criminal in nature - in that they break the meta-rules of the Country.
[ 2013.01.28 17:45:45 ] castle2 keep > the laws and codes made by gangs wer made by 1 person or a few gang members
[ 2013.01.28 17:46:34 ] Agent Eunoli > Correct.  And, within the context of a Western Representational Democracy the fact that they attempted to pursue illegal activities makes them criminal.
[ 2013.01.28 17:46:43 ] Agent Eunoli > I agree with that full and whole heartedly.
[ 2013.01.28 17:47:10 ] castle2 keep > the laws made the USA wer made the ppl then voted by ppl or politons repsending the ppl
[ 2013.01.28 17:47:16 ] Agent Eunoli > But, what of a new town?  A group of people who come together and set out a set of laws for their local region?
[ 2013.01.28 17:47:41 ] castle2 keep > that depends
[ 2013.01.28 17:47:54 ] castle2 keep > is it allready calaimed?
[ 2013.01.28 17:47:56 ] Agent Eunoli > That's allowed and accepted because it works in accordance to the overall framework of the overall Federal Government.
[ 2013.01.28 17:48:24 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep no, it isn't.
[ 2013.01.28 17:48:41 ] Agent Eunoli > A new town is recognized by the government by it being there and signing a charter.
[ 2013.01.28 17:48:59 ] Agent Eunoli > In this Analogy, CCP is the Federal Goverment, is that fair?
[ 2013.01.28 17:49:01 ] castle2 keep > on earth than it could be claimed by any form of govermant
[ 2013.01.28 17:49:38 ] castle2 keep > ok
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:00 ] Agent Eunoli > And CCP has laid out a set of rules and instructions for the people that inhabit its enviromnent to follow.
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:08 ] Agent Eunoli > Do you agree with that?
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:11 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:31 ] castle2 keep > the code onthe eve web site
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:42 ] Agent Eunoli > One of the things that CCP has set out and encourages is the concept of "emergent gameplay" which is, basically, players creating content for players.
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:46 ] Agent Eunoli > Do you agree with that?
[ 2013.01.28 17:50:48 ] castle2 keep > and the 1 i had to accept to play this gam
[ 2013.01.28 17:51:07 ] Agent Eunoli > Exactly yes, the EULA and a code of, essentially, responsible gameplay.
[ 2013.01.28 17:51:14 ] Agent Eunoli > plus the terms and conditions
[ 2013.01.28 17:51:44 ] castle2 keep > yes sence thay made the game thay have the right 2 make the ruled or codes
[ 2013.01.28 17:52:05 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep exactly.  Now, do you agree that CCP encourages players to engage in "emergent gameplay?"
[ 2013.01.28 17:52:22 ] castle2 keep > yes and no
[ 2013.01.28 17:52:38 ] Agent Eunoli > Yes... and no.  You can't have both on that one.
[ 2013.01.28 17:52:51 ] Agent Eunoli > So long as the players do not break the EULA and terms of conditions of the game.
[ 2013.01.28 17:52:54 ] castle2 keep > yes for "emergent gameplay"
[ 2013.01.28 17:53:15 ] castle2 keep > no for greifing
[ 2013.01.28 17:53:20 ] castle2 keep > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing
[ 2013.01.28 17:53:29 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep agreed.  And griefing is clearly laid out by CCP.
[ 2013.01.28 17:53:50 ] Agent Eunoli > So long as players abide by the EULA then CCP encourages emergent gameplay.
[ 2013.01.28 17:53:50 ] castle2 keep > yes and u grief
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:10 ] Agent Eunoli > No, that's already been settled and established that we do not.  As said by CCP.
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:15 ] Agent Eunoli > But, putting that aside for the moment.
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:27 ] Agent Eunoli > Does CCP encourage players to form into communities and organizations?
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:38 ] Agent Eunoli > And, further to that, does CCP allow it?
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:42 ] castle2 keep > yes corps and allinces
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:54 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep what about coalions?
[ 2013.01.28 17:54:58 ] Agent Eunoli > coalitions?
[ 2013.01.28 17:55:02 ] castle2 keep > thts the way the game is made
[ 2013.01.28 17:55:09 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 17:55:32 ] Agent Eunoli > So, the game is made to allow for player run organizations, agreed?
[ 2013.01.28 17:55:47 ] Rebecca Dark-Star > yes
[ 2013.01.28 17:55:48 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 17:56:03 ] Agent Eunoli > And player run organizations are allowed to self-rule?
[ 2013.01.28 17:56:22 ] Agent Eunoli > (within the context and framework of the overall game agreements and mechanics)
[ 2013.01.28 17:56:26 ] castle2 keep > as lond as its with in the eula
[ 2013.01.28 17:56:35 ] Rebecca Dark-Star > yes, they can even control sections of space
[ 2013.01.28 17:56:37 ] castle2 keep > long*
[ 2013.01.28 17:57:07 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep do you agree with  Rebecca Dark-Star?
[ 2013.01.28 17:57:28 ] castle2 keep > no i dent c that part in the eula
[ 2013.01.28 17:57:35 ] Agent Eunoli > It's not forbidden by it
[ 2013.01.28 17:57:53 ] Rebecca Dark-Star > sovernty control in null space
[ 2013.01.28 17:57:57 ] Agent Eunoli > And CCP encourages players to create their own content via emergent gameplay.
[ 2013.01.28 17:57:58 ] castle2 keep > no but its not part of the game mecs
[ 2013.01.28 17:58:06 ] Agent Eunoli > Plus there are definitely in-game mechanisms to support it.
[ 2013.01.28 17:58:28 ] castle2 keep > null space yes thats part of claimable space
[ 2013.01.28 17:58:32 ] Rebecca Dark-Star > yawn bored already going back to dust laters
[ 2013.01.28 17:58:40 ] Agent Eunoli > Rebecca Dark-Star laters!
[ 2013.01.28 17:59:02 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep now, in a corporation, does the corporation have the right to create their own internal rules?
[ 2013.01.28 17:59:20 ] castle2 keep > to a degre
[ 2013.01.28 17:59:35 ] castle2 keep > they dont gain rights over other corps
[ 2013.01.28 17:59:36 ] Agent Eunoli > So long as they stay within the context and framework of CCP's agreements?
[ 2013.01.28 17:59:51 ] Agent Eunoli > Wait, what do you mean by that  castle2 keep?
[ 2013.01.28 18:00:21 ] Donovan Tsero > o/ aydo
[ 2013.01.28 18:00:48 ] castle2 keep > thay can make laws for there own corp but thats dosent give them laws over other corps or eve space
[ 2013.01.28 18:00:54 ] castle2 keep > sep null
[ 2013.01.28 18:01:04 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep what about wormhole space?
[ 2013.01.28 18:01:29 ] Donovan Tsero > I think wormhole counts as null, because no concord
[ 2013.01.28 18:01:39 ] castle2 keep > if the game mecs allow claiming there then yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:02:03 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep well, a corporation can take up residence in a wormhole and kill anyone that enters.  That's within the game mechanics.
[ 2013.01.28 18:02:08 ] Agent Eunoli > Is that okay?
[ 2013.01.28 18:02:10 ] Agent Eunoli > (by you)
[ 2013.01.28 18:02:42 ] castle2 keep > thay may have the power the thay dent neccely clain it
[ 2013.01.28 18:02:58 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep but, really, if they have the power, then they've claimed it right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:03:09 ] castle2 keep > no
[ 2013.01.28 18:03:22 ] Agent Eunoli > no.. what?  How do you mean no?
[ 2013.01.28 18:03:24 ] castle2 keep > just bully it really
[ 2013.01.28 18:03:39 ] Agent Eunoli > Oh, so all wormhole systems that are 'controlled' by corps are really run by bullies?
[ 2013.01.28 18:03:54 ] castle2 keep > yes really
[ 2013.01.28 18:03:58 ] Agent Eunoli > What's the difference between wormhole space and 0.0 space?  SBUs?
[ 2013.01.28 18:04:15 ] castle2 keep > sbu?
[ 2013.01.28 18:04:55 ] Agent Eunoli > sovereignty blockade units.. one of the things used in sov warfare
[ 2013.01.28 18:05:44 ] castle2 keep > i dont no much abought that
[ 2013.01.28 18:06:13 ] castle2 keep > but game mecs on claiming i no a lot on
[ 2013.01.28 18:06:29 ] Agent Eunoli > So, if a corporation takes up residence in a system.  Keeps everyone out that they don't want.
[ 2013.01.28 18:06:36 ] Agent Eunoli > And has been there for, say, three years.
[ 2013.01.28 18:06:45 ] Agent Eunoli > You wouldn't think of that as "their" system?
[ 2013.01.28 18:07:00 ] Agent Eunoli > But, instead, they are bullies?
[ 2013.01.28 18:07:18 ] castle2 keep > depends...
[ 2013.01.28 18:07:26 ] Agent Eunoli > It depends... on what?
[ 2013.01.28 18:07:54 ] castle2 keep > on the star on where ever dose it say claimed by (how ever)
[ 2013.01.28 18:07:58 ] castle2 keep > who*
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:03 ] castle2 keep > ?
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:06 ] Agent Eunoli > It doesn't say that in wormhole space
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:09 ] Agent Eunoli > but I know what you mean
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:13 ] Agent Eunoli > So, if that doesn't change
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:29 ] Agent Eunoli > then, in your mind, you aren't allowed to try to control or claim a system?
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:49 ] castle2 keep > then no they dent rightly claim it  thay jusy bully it
[ 2013.01.28 18:08:57 ] castle2 keep > just*
[ 2013.01.28 18:09:21 ] Agent Eunoli > Even though they are playing the game as it is designed, engaging in activities promoted by CCP and encouraged?
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:01 ] castle2 keep > if in low sec where pvp combat is allowed then yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:16 ] Agent Eunoli > Combat is "allowed" yes.
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:32 ] castle2 keep > yes in 04 or less
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:34 ] Agent Eunoli > What makes combat being allowed?
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:39 ] Agent Eunoli > in your mind
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:47 ] castle2 keep > its descurged in 05+
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:55 ] castle2 keep > but u can still do it
[ 2013.01.28 18:10:55 ] Agent Eunoli > But it's not prevented.
[ 2013.01.28 18:11:13 ] Agent Eunoli > So, is it wrong to engage in pvp in those systems?
[ 2013.01.28 18:11:14 ] castle2 keep > concord trys to prevent it
[ 2013.01.28 18:11:17 ] Agent Eunoli > even though it is allowed?
[ 2013.01.28 18:11:40 ] castle2 keep > Agent Eunoli > So, is it wrong to engage in pvp in those systems? where hi or low?
[ 2013.01.28 18:12:13 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep highsec
[ 2013.01.28 18:12:56 ] castle2 keep > concord will atack u because thay controll securty
[ 2013.01.28 18:13:13 ] castle2 keep > thay dont want players pvping in hisec
[ 2013.01.28 18:13:31 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep well, if that was the case, wouldn't they just prevent it?
[ 2013.01.28 18:13:41 ] Agent Eunoli > It's doable.  Other games do it.
[ 2013.01.28 18:14:33 ] castle2 keep > yes i guess they want ppl 2 be ably to deal with the conceses
[ 2013.01.28 18:14:48 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep exactly, there's a consequence to pvping in Highsec.  CONCORD.
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:03 ] Agent Eunoli > But, it's still allowed by CCP's design, right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:09 ] castle2 keep > they lose there ship and lose sec stats
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:15 ] Agent Eunoli > Exactly
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:22 ] castle2 keep > yes tho its not encurged
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:31 ] Agent Eunoli > Agreed, but it is -allowed- right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:39 ] castle2 keep > its descurged
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:45 ] castle2 keep > but yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:15:51 ] Agent Eunoli > Agreed.  But allowed and permissible.
[ 2013.01.28 18:16:11 ] castle2 keep > ok
[ 2013.01.28 18:16:11 ] Agent Eunoli > Could you define bully?
[ 2013.01.28 18:16:50 ] castle2 keep > ok
[ 2013.01.28 18:17:36 ] castle2 keep > some 1 who attemps to gain controll over useing force or imtemation
[ 2013.01.28 18:18:05 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep what about police? are they bullies?
[ 2013.01.28 18:19:15 ] castle2 keep > no 1 they abide by the laws in the usa 2 they r employed by the usa to enforce the laws on the usa
[ 2013.01.28 18:19:25 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep is CCP a bully?
[ 2013.01.28 18:19:54 ] Agent Eunoli > by your definition they are attemping to control our actions through intimidation - if you don't do what CCP says is okay you are banned.
[ 2013.01.28 18:19:55 ] castle2 keep > no we agreded to its eula when we first played eve
[ 2013.01.28 18:20:25 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep okay, so, if someone agrees to something then those who enforce that agreement aren't bullies?
[ 2013.01.28 18:20:43 ] castle2 keep > no
[ 2013.01.28 18:20:45 ] Agent Eunoli > Like, a football game.  The referees aren't bullies because the players agreed to abide by a set of rules.
[ 2013.01.28 18:21:05 ] Agent Eunoli > Is that fair?
[ 2013.01.28 18:21:26 ] castle2 keep > yes or they cant join the team
[ 2013.01.28 18:21:36 ] Agent Eunoli > Exactly.
[ 2013.01.28 18:22:01 ] Agent Eunoli > Okay, back to the wormhole space situation.  A corporation made up of players who agreed to play EVE by following the rules set forth by CCP
[ 2013.01.28 18:22:12 ] castle2 keep > ok
[ 2013.01.28 18:22:13 ] Agent Eunoli > Encounters another group of players who have done the same thing.
[ 2013.01.28 18:22:26 ] Agent Eunoli > The first group keeps the second group from entering.
[ 2013.01.28 18:22:41 ] Agent Eunoli > Are the people of the first group still bullies in your eyes?
[ 2013.01.28 18:23:27 ] castle2 keep > they both trying to accoupy a truly unclaim able spot so yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:23:38 ] Agent Eunoli > So, they are bullies?
[ 2013.01.28 18:23:42 ] Agent Eunoli > What makes them bullies?
[ 2013.01.28 18:24:04 ] castle2 keep > yes they have no right 2 claim it
[ 2013.01.28 18:24:26 ] Agent Eunoli > But they do, CCP allows them to keep the other group out.
[ 2013.01.28 18:24:33 ] Agent Eunoli > And even encourages people to do it.
[ 2013.01.28 18:24:42 ] Agent Eunoli > They can set up player owned structures
[ 2013.01.28 18:24:50 ] Agent Eunoli > they can fight one another
[ 2013.01.28 18:25:15 ] castle2 keep > no in low/null ccp alows pvp they use this in there bulling tho
[ 2013.01.28 18:25:38 ] castle2 keep > so pvp is allowed claiming isnt
[ 2013.01.28 18:26:17 ] castle2 keep > they bully players out of the space that they occupy
[ 2013.01.28 18:26:39 ] Agent Eunoli > hmm.. okay okay, let me ask you something else
[ 2013.01.28 18:27:21 ] Agent Eunoli > In boxing, two people punch each other with the intent of knocking the other out.  Is that bullying?
[ 2013.01.28 18:27:45 ] castle2 keep > y r they fighting?
[ 2013.01.28 18:28:08 ] castle2 keep > o nvm
[ 2013.01.28 18:28:13 ] castle2 keep > no
[ 2013.01.28 18:28:15 ] Agent Eunoli > It's a boxing match
[ 2013.01.28 18:28:20 ] Agent Eunoli > Why isn't that bullying?
[ 2013.01.28 18:28:52 ] castle2 keep > because its areana where ppl agre to fight a apontent
[ 2013.01.28 18:29:16 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep okay, so they agreed that fighting is part of the game they are playing right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:29:26 ] castle2 keep > if some 1 did not want to fight they would not sihg up
[ 2013.01.28 18:29:30 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:29:35 ] Agent Eunoli > By entering the boxing ring, it's okay to do it?
[ 2013.01.28 18:29:59 ] castle2 keep > and they must oby the rules of the game but yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:30:06 ] Donovan Tsero > I think you've got him Eunoli
[ 2013.01.28 18:31:34 ] Agent Eunoli > So.. every player who enters EVE Online is agreeing that combat can happen, right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:32:09 ] castle2 keep > no low-null is where pvp is exped to happen
[ 2013.01.28 18:32:27 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep but you've already agreed that it is okay in Highsec as well.  And allowed.
[ 2013.01.28 18:32:31 ] Agent Eunoli > But there are consequences to it.
[ 2013.01.28 18:32:31 ] castle2 keep > and wh
[ 2013.01.28 18:33:06 ] Agent Eunoli > Basically, pvp can happen anywhere in the game and we, as players, agree to that by entering the game.  Right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:33:07 ] castle2 keep > yes it CAN happen but its not supose to
[ 2013.01.28 18:34:28 ] castle2 keep > thats y ccp made concord
[ 2013.01.28 18:35:16 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep so, players accept and agree that when they enter the game, as part of the game, PvP is possible to happen everywhere in space.  Right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:35:38 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:35:55 ] Agent Eunoli > Then, back to the wormhole thing, with the two corporations, how is that bullying?
[ 2013.01.28 18:36:08 ] Agent Eunoli > Both groups of players agreed that such a thing could happen within the game.
[ 2013.01.28 18:36:39 ] castle2 keep > its not a terrytorry was appose to bulling as claim right can not b made
[ 2013.01.28 18:36:47 ] castle2 keep > war*
[ 2013.01.28 18:36:59 ] castle2 keep > so its really a big pvp
[ 2013.01.28 18:37:13 ] castle2 keep > allowed by concord
[ 2013.01.28 18:37:19 ] Agent Eunoli > Okay, call it what you will, but it's okay to happen in the game and it isn't bullying right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:37:55 ] castle2 keep > no that is bulling if they dont have claim rights
[ 2013.01.28 18:38:28 ] castle2 keep > appose to just a pvp battle
[ 2013.01.28 18:38:31 ] Agent Eunoli > What if one group just happened to be there and the other one came.  The first group engages the second group in combat.
[ 2013.01.28 18:38:34 ] Agent Eunoli > That's okay?
[ 2013.01.28 18:39:07 ] castle2 keep > its allowed by concord tho it may not be ok
[ 2013.01.28 18:39:15 ] castle2 keep > moraly^
[ 2013.01.28 18:39:29 ] Agent Eunoli > Well, morality isn't part of the discussion at this point :)
[ 2013.01.28 18:39:42 ] castle2 keep > iv notesed
[ 2013.01.28 18:39:56 ] Agent Eunoli > But, no bullying if one group is there and another comes along so the first one fights with the second group.  Right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:40:15 ] castle2 keep > ok
[ 2013.01.28 18:40:33 ] Agent Eunoli > Now, if that first group stays there, and a third group comes along.. and they fight.  No bullying right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:40:49 ] castle2 keep > thats just a pvp
[ 2013.01.28 18:41:05 ] Agent Eunoli > So, the first group stays there and the second group comes back, and they fight, no bullying?
[ 2013.01.28 18:41:09 ] castle2 keep > there fighting in that space not claiming it
[ 2013.01.28 18:41:37 ] Agent Eunoli > So, that's okay with you right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:41:48 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:41:50 ] Agent Eunoli > I mean, it's just space fighting as you put it.
[ 2013.01.28 18:41:53 ] castle2 keep > all i c is pvp
[ 2013.01.28 18:42:07 ] Agent Eunoli > And, if that first group stays there for a month, and fights everyone who comes there, that's okay right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:43:03 ] castle2 keep > they have a right to stay or occupy a there but they havent claimed it
[ 2013.01.28 18:43:23 ] castle2 keep > so yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:43:35 ] Agent Eunoli > okay, so players can occupy space and stay there.. and they can keep other players out of it.  That's okay right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:44:14 ] castle2 keep > its a form of bulling but its allowed in the eula so yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:44:23 ] Agent Eunoli > But... how is that now bullying?
[ 2013.01.28 18:44:32 ] Agent Eunoli > It's exactly the same thing you were saying was okay.
[ 2013.01.28 18:44:55 ] castle2 keep > w8 r they claiming it or just being there?
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:04 ] Agent Eunoli > Oh, they are just there.
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:11 ] Agent Eunoli > And keeping anyone else from being there.
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:14 ] Agent Eunoli > That's good right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:15 ] castle2 keep > then no its pvp
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:24 ] castle2 keep > so its ok
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:37 ] Agent Eunoli > Plus, it's okay if they let some friends swing by and visit right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:45:58 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:46:17 ] Agent Eunoli > And, since this is EVE, maybe let their friends hang out for awhile at a small and reasonable transfer of ISK?
[ 2013.01.28 18:46:30 ] Agent Eunoli > It's good space after all, lots of resources and stuff, and it's now safe.
[ 2013.01.28 18:47:40 ] castle2 keep > yes if the miners have the right to go back in to hi sec if they dont want 2 pay
[ 2013.01.28 18:47:57 ] Agent Eunoli > Yeah, if you don't want pay you don't have to stay there.
[ 2013.01.28 18:48:00 ] Agent Eunoli > That's cool right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:48:04 ] castle2 keep > it is extroson
[ 2013.01.28 18:48:20 ] Agent Eunoli > But... I was just saying what you were saying.
[ 2013.01.28 18:48:21 ] castle2 keep > but allowed in 0.0 and wh
[ 2013.01.28 18:49:01 ] Agent Eunoli > well, it's allowed everywhere by CCP, right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:49:31 ] castle2 keep > what is?
[ 2013.01.28 18:49:57 ] Agent Eunoli > Allowing one person or a group of people send money to another person or group of people.
[ 2013.01.28 18:50:22 ] castle2 keep > yes isk transfer is allowed
[ 2013.01.28 18:50:47 ] Agent Eunoli > And that transfer is allowed if one group promises to keep the other group safe, that's just a business transaction right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:51:37 ] castle2 keep > is it a agrement? like killing wh bots or pirats
[ 2013.01.28 18:51:50 ] castle2 keep > reall agrement*
[ 2013.01.28 18:52:01 ] Agent Eunoli > it can be for anything can't it?
[ 2013.01.28 18:52:12 ] Agent Eunoli > It's allowed by CCP's game mechanics
[ 2013.01.28 18:52:26 ] castle2 keep > the right to trans fer isk yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:52:47 ] Agent Eunoli > And it's okay, as you said earlier, for one group to pay another group to access resources and be safe.  Right?
[ 2013.01.28 18:52:47 ] castle2 keep > the agrement...prolly not
[ 2013.01.28 18:53:37 ] castle2 keep > its allowed by ccp but its prolly not a correct agrement
[ 2013.01.28 18:53:48 ] Agent Eunoli > what's not correct about it?
[ 2013.01.28 18:54:00 ] Agent Eunoli > but, that doesn't matter I suppose.
[ 2013.01.28 18:54:05 ] castle2 keep > paying for safty....
[ 2013.01.28 18:54:13 ] Agent Eunoli > right, what's wrong with that really?
[ 2013.01.28 18:54:33 ] castle2 keep > do they kill the sleepers and pirats for the safty of the ppl there?
[ 2013.01.28 18:54:40 ] Agent Eunoli > Right
[ 2013.01.28 18:55:00 ] castle2 keep > or just safty from them selfs?
[ 2013.01.28 18:55:42 ] Agent Eunoli > Just the right to be there with the other group that just happens to hang out there all the time but doesn't uhh.. claim the system.
[ 2013.01.28 18:56:02 ] Agent Eunoli > How you put, they are occupying space
[ 2013.01.28 18:56:22 ] castle2 keep > yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:56:46 ] castle2 keep > its really extorson too avoid a pvp battle
[ 2013.01.28 18:56:51 ] Agent Eunoli > And that's cool everywhere right?  Since the game mechanics support it and CCP is good with it.
[ 2013.01.28 18:57:12 ] castle2 keep > in low sec yes
[ 2013.01.28 18:57:14 ] Agent Eunoli > Well, no, it isn't extorsion as you pointed out, the people can go elsewhere.
[ 2013.01.28 18:57:20 ] Agent Eunoli > Why not high sec?
[ 2013.01.28 18:57:40 ] castle2 keep > 1 sec
[ 2013.01.28 18:57:56 ] castle2 keep > its a form of greafing
[ 2013.01.28 18:58:09 ] Agent Eunoli > By who's definition?  Not CCP's.
[ 2013.01.28 18:58:24 ] castle2 keep > yes ccp
[ 2013.01.28 18:58:31 ] castle2 keep > The agressors will try to kill a exhumer with a group of cheap ships, and afterwards extort money from the victim allowing him to mine unmolested again.
[ 2013.01.28 18:58:34 ] Agent Eunoli > The game mechanics allow it, the players agreed to it being a possibility to happen, it's not against the EULA.
[ 2013.01.28 18:58:44 ] castle2 keep > http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Griefing
[ 2013.01.28 18:59:08 ] castle2 keep > thats greafing by ccp standerds
[ 2013.01.28 18:59:32 ] Agent Eunoli > This is the -actual- definition.
[ 2013.01.28 18:59:34 ] Agent Eunoli > http://support.eveonline.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=336
[ 2013.01.28 18:59:51 ] Agent Eunoli > A player modified the wiki.. again I might add.
[ 2013.01.28 18:59:58 ] Agent Eunoli > That comment was removed before.
[ 2013.01.28 19:00:32 ] Agent Eunoli > CCP has already stated that suicide ganking is okay.  They have sanctioned it.
[ 2013.01.28 19:00:40 ] Agent Eunoli > So, no, that is not griefing as defined by CCP.
[ 2013.01.28 19:02:34 ] castle2 keep > ok its extorson by def then
[ 2013.01.28 19:03:28 ] Agent Eunoli > If we ignore your labeling for the moment, it is something that players agree to by entering the game right?
[ 2013.01.28 19:03:36 ] Agent Eunoli > It's part of the game as laid out by CCP.
[ 2013.01.28 19:04:42 ] castle2 keep > no i never agred to extorson altho so far its allowed in eve
[ 2013.01.28 19:04:55 ] castle2 keep > ita allowed^
[ 2013.01.28 19:05:14 ] Agent Eunoli > You contradict yourself in that statement.  You've agreed to play a game with the rules laid out by CCP.
[ 2013.01.28 19:06:05 ] Agent Eunoli > But, that aside, it is okay to:  pvp anywhere in EVE, although if you do so in Highsec there are consequences.  Right?
[ 2013.01.28 19:06:27 ] castle2 keep > the eula never sead i would never have ppl try to extort isk from me
[ 2013.01.28 19:07:14 ] castle2 keep > defn pvp? atacking miners that have no guns is not pvp
[ 2013.01.28 19:07:21 ] castle2 keep > im my biik
[ 2013.01.28 19:07:25 ] castle2 keep > book*
[ 2013.01.28 19:07:32 ] Donovan Tsero > There's ganking in any game
[ 2013.01.28 19:08:26 ] castle2 keep > Donovan Tsero sadly so tho its looked down on and most games have rules 2 prevent that
[ 2013.01.28 19:08:35 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep okay, allow me to rephrase, it is okay to engage in player versus player combat anywhere in EVE, although in Highsec there are consequences to that action.
[ 2013.01.28 19:08:54 ] Donovan Tsero > castle2 keep I think you're forgetting that EVE is a big social experiment
[ 2013.01.28 19:09:24 ] castle2 keep > ok? no but u can do it if u can kill faster then concord warps
[ 2013.01.28 19:09:28 ] Phoenix Bibbs > My new Talos has shown up.  Hi  Seraphina Bibbs o/
[ 2013.01.28 19:09:53 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep permissible by CCP then.  It is within the game's rules to do so.
[ 2013.01.28 19:10:37 ] castle2 keep > yes tho the reason the concord r here is to stop that
[ 2013.01.28 19:10:43 ] Agent Eunoli > Donovan Tsero my hope is to get  castle2 keep to open his eyes a little more :)  But, I think I've hit the disconnect.
[ 2013.01.28 19:11:00 ] castle2 keep > ya iv got collage
[ 2013.01.28 19:11:08 ] Agent Eunoli > Where it's okay to do in one situation but change the PERCEPTION of the situation and now it's against the rules somehow.
[ 2013.01.28 19:11:33 ] Agent Eunoli > One doesn't have to agree with it, from a moral perspective, but from a gameplay point of view it is permissible and okay.
[ 2013.01.28 19:11:33 ] Donovan Tsero > Yeah I mean it's fine to hate the gankers but it's part of the game
[ 2013.01.28 19:11:38 ] castle2 keep > no not agenst the rules of ccp (eula)
[ 2013.01.28 19:11:51 ] castle2 keep > but its extorson
[ 2013.01.28 19:12:03 ] Agent Eunoli > castle2 keep that's another discussion for another day ;)
[ 2013.01.28 19:12:09 ] Agent Eunoli > we're makign progress!
[ 2013.01.28 19:12:10 ] Agent Eunoli > \o/
[/quote]
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Re: Local Logs - A Conversation with castle2 keep

Vreedom
[17:29] til [19:12] is a little more than a couple of minutes downtime =)

A long an interesting read that will help me in my own discussions with
the locals. Thank you for your efforts!

Keep leading him to the truth!
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Re: Local Logs - A Conversation with castle2 keep

Agent Eunoli
[17:29] til [19:12] is a little more than a couple of minutes downtime =)

That is dependent on the perspective is it not?  In comparison to ten years under 2 hours is nothing more than a few fleeting moments.  And, taken in that perspective, it is accurate to use the colloquialism of a 'few minutes' to express the sentiment.  :)

Miner Bumping discussions in local are far too enjoyable.