Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
17 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Determinor
This post was updated on .
   I couldn't think of a creative title, sorry. It can be "How will the New Order end", but that's pretty dramatic about what I will write about.
   I will write about what will happen when everything goes perfect for the New Order. By perfect, I mean when the Order has theoretically settled in EVERY highsec system that can be mined in. Even though that's alot of systems, we're thinking hypothetically here.


"This means that everyone who enters New Order territory is deemed to have agreed to its terms." 3rd paragraph of the code.
   As we are making the assumption of the Order being everywhere on highsec, with this part of the code, we can see that not every miner, but every player who enters highsec must follow the code.
Now I'm going to combine these facts with other code parts and make proper assumptions...


"The New Order of Highsec continues to recognize The Mittani as the legitimate Chairman of the CSM. This determination remains the rule in all New Order territories."
   With this part, you are asking for everyone in highsec to choose their CSM leader as The Mittani (though I really think it as forcing people to believe that way instead of asking people to believe that way, since people can reject you when you ask them). This is not that big of a deal honestly, but what happens if someone rejects The Mittani as the CSM leader? Into the red pen it is...
   The effects of being red penned while the order is big enough to cover all of highsec will result in that character not being able to mine at all. I will write the effects of the red pen later on this post.
Now to the important stuff...


"Mining indulgences may be purchased for 10 million isk per character, and are good for one year, subject to forfeiture."
"Gallant promptly pays 10 million isk to the Supreme Protector of Halaima."
   With our assumption of the Order covering all of highsec, every miner will be forced into buying a mining permit for 10m, regardless of who they are, and if they object, they may have to get red penned, pay 30m and be certainly ganked before the payment.

   The problem with this arises when you include newbies (under a month of time in eve) that are trying to mine with what they got. Some of them will have retrievers, and you will target them for sure. Now let's think about this hypothetical encounter: Here we have a miner (let's assume that) who mines when he wants to, for at most 2 hours a day, while at being mostly in their keyboard. Then the new order comes. Now there are 2 ways this will go.
1. He was AFK for like 3-4 minutes the time the order came in. That time is enough for the Order to bump him out of range, if not gank him (I don't know when do you choose to gank exactly, after how many minutes of AFKing). He comes back to see that, say, he is bumped out of mining range. He quickly tries to go back to the asteroids, with no success. He tries warping away, no success. He gets a little angry, tells the bumper to go away. After the usual offer, since he is angry, he refuses it. In come the gankers. Because he is constantly being bumped, he cannot warp away as he is being bumped, and is demolished by the gankers. He loses his ship for sure. He looks on to avenge his loss, for it was something of great value that he couldn't replace at that moment. Remeber, most newcomers don't know the rule "Don't fly what you cannot afford to lose." After this, he loses sympathy for mining and does something else when he learns that this Order covers everywhere at highsec.
2. He was at his keyboard and was looking at local and answers the call of the agent of the Order. He is asked for 10M isk for a mining permit, which is possibly a quarter of his total money that miner was collecting to buy something better for mining, which he refuses for it's too expensive for him, and that he doesn't know the magnitude of your Order yet. He would think that it's those one or two guys that appear on local that are the part of this. He may be warned by local people (he most possibly will be warned by the local) to pay for it's the best. Most newcomers, at this point may accept to pay, but let's assume that he really doesn't have the money to pay, or sincerely doesn't want to pay. He will read the code, as he isn't an AFK miner. He will think that since he is doing everything except the part of paying, he won't understand why he has to pay at all. For protection against them? He would think of it as an extortion, and start to complain. When he states that this is unfair and so, he will get the answers that will not satisfy him, so he will try reporting for extortion and harassment. Oops, he has broken another rule of the Code which I've written later on this text. To the red pen list. In comes the gankers. Boom, hull shot. It doesn't matter if the newcomer was flying a tanked procurer, the Order will have so much dominance over highsec and so much money influx that they will be ganking even against ganking being not profitable. Newcomer loses his ship, if he hasn't docked. If he has, he still loses all ability to become a miner and mine when he wants.

   We can easily assume that no one can escape the Order's bumpers and its gankers. Most possibly you will choose a system, and when you see a newcomer mining in a retriever (plex money is possible to get it remember), you will not care if he is new to the game, you will bump him, gank him, shortly, disable him to do any mining, as I've written. He cannot escape from you, for there is nowhere at highsec left to run to. Also, what will happen to him/her, when he becomes afk and loses his permit? His game is over in an instant. Without the money, he will most possibly leave mining, since he has no chance at that point; remember, he is a newcomer and is likely to be poor for the 30M and replacing his ship.

   With mining permits from all over highsec, you will have so much money that you will be left free to not only cover losses, but give extra money for gankers. Since you will have that much money, you will no longer care about attacking full tanked skiffs, for even if you fail at first time, as long as you kill it, it'll all be better. The tanking part of the code will be obsolete.

   You can see how a newcomer to Eve Online can be shut down completely from mining simply because he doesn't pay for some reasons. He then will believe that all of this Order thing is a huge setup that has dominated highsec that prevents miners who are just like him from mining. They will report under harassment, extortion and open threatening, since they are hating you for what you did to them (combine the moneyless miners with the AFK newcomers that occasionally leave their keyboards for something without the habit of telling local, we will have a newcomer miner army). I don't see how you can not be banned after this point.
Onto the next point...


"To minimize the workload of our GMs, miners shall not file petitions against the Supreme Protector or his Agents. Failure to abide by this rule is an automatic Red Pen violation (see below)."
   You ask for all of highsec to not file petitions against the Order. You also threaten them all (possible blackmailing?) with your red pen, which, at that stage, will most certainly doom them, for you will be able to gank everything at that point, even if you lose isk wise. That person's mining career (also maybe any career that involves highsec) is over, without a doubt.
You will most likely make an example of people who claims to have reported you in local. Combine this with the part where I wrote "possible blackmail", and the Order is eligible to be reported for blackmailing (blackmailing people to not report them. Ironic isn't it? What did you expect to happen though? There is no other direction this can take in the mind of a person that is against the Order).

"Gallant recognizes his place is at the bottom of the EVE hierarchy."
This is a great way to make people hate you. You wil be hated by like %40 of EVERY miner in highsec for just this, including me. I think this is a false statement, given how many people are doing it. The Order shouldn't call the ones that they are changing according to their code, to make them think that they are the scum of the Eve Online. That's just wrong, and this can cause the discontent of many miners who can realize the connection of the result of their mining to the industry of New Eden.


The ultimate goal of The New Order of Highsec (which is to carry their code to every highsec system) will bring all of what I've wrote. And those will bring banning, under the heading I've listed with their reasons.

Remember that this is a hypothetical situation, which I'm thinking will not happen.
Thanks.
Edit: After reading the comments and reading my post again, I've edited my post to clarify my ideas and my trail of thought with some examples and proper English. Sorry for the misunderstanding my typing has caused.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

admiral root
I really tried, but the only parts that made any sense at all were the quotes from the Code.  Perhaps you could try again, this time writing in a manner that approaches semi-literate and applying actual logic?  Also, quotes are awesome things, which is why there's quote BBCode.

When we accomplish our goals, highsec will be filled with people, not bots.  Those people will interact with each other, they will pay attention to local, dscan and their overview, and they will find their gameplay far more enjoyable because they'll actually be playing, rather than merely standing on the sidelines watching, or worse, AFK.

Oh, and the reason petitioning us is a violation of the code is because, as I have said many times on the Eve forum and in-game, nothing we do violates the EULA.  Therefore, every petition about us is a waste of GM time and keeps people with genuine issues waiting longer.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Melissa Cesaille
 A common local response to our activity is people saying things like "I don't mind the New Order, I actually find what you're doing fun!" or "you guys are hilarious."

 While the comments are said with derision and designed to be dismissive of our efforts, the underlying message is the same: people who were previously not having fun are now having fun. We have given a spark to an otherwise bleak, robotic social landscape.

 This is where the New Order will lead. A high sec where players can enjoy emergent gameplay and new content, and are also inspired to bring their own content to the game.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Manny Moons
Melissa Cesaille wrote
...people who were previously not having fun are now having fun...
Yes. And while our enemies are our enemies and of course I don't want them to succeed, I do wish they would do something a little more creative than sitting for hours outside the station, or at a gate.  It's almost as depressing as ice mining.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Determinor
This post was updated on .
Edited and cleaned. Thanks Admiral for saying that it's not clear.

I know at this moment, you are not doing anything against the EULA and thus cannot be reported. But when the time comes and you guys cover all of highsec, these things will start happening, simply because it's nearly impossible to evade it. Please remember that this is a hypothetical situation which I find unlikely, given how many highsec systems are there.
I have reasons to not like the Order, the first being that you do not differentiate between the AFK and the not AFK enough. The only differentiation that I know is the red pen, but think of what I've wrote. There are other ways than being AFK to enter the red pen list. Defying the Order even resulted in the double red pen list, in a major incident. There are many other small reasons too, such as modifying your bio to cover a signature. It doesn't write on the code yet, but you still apply it.
I certainly like the idea that the miners should pay at least the amount of attention I pay while mining at wormholes. However, a careful miner would dock when he would see the knights in local. At my hypothetical situation however, since there would be knights quite literally everywhere, and that they would have to dock.
You will say that if they check dscan, they will be safe. That is true, unless you start to coordinate your bumping with ganking, a thing I've experienced while trying to mine in a war. The war deccers sneaked up an alt, combat scanned me, warped to me and started bumping me. I couldn't escape because I wasn't ready for it, even though I was aligned. I was a bit late to warp, so I got bumped and then the wardeccers jumped in and killed me. This can be done with your Order quite easily, as you don't need to ship scan. If you continually bump the miner (I've written this in my writing) while the gankers arrive, he cannot escape, for his ship's alignment is never correct.
If you do that, the miners will have NO chance against you, and now has to dock when they  see not a knight, but an agent on local. Things get quite worse for them now.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Agent Trask
You are missing the obvious and easy solution here, Determinator:

Buy a New Order mining permit, put the bumper sticker on your bio, and say "Hi" when an agent announces that code enforcement is in progress.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Galaxy_Pig
In reply to this post by Determinor
Miners already have no chance against us.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Determinor
In reply to this post by Agent Trask
The obvious was that the miner didn't have that money and you guys failed to understand that, as with you Trask. Please read carefully about my assumption.

Galaxy Pig: Miners can beat you if they are at their keyboards and are organized. For example, a spotter waiting at the station the gankers are in notifies when the gankers undock is enough for the miners to warp away. If I remember correctly, due to your sec status, you are bound to lose your ship when you undock at highsec. If not, you don't succeed in ganking anyway.
Also an example how you guys can lose: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=196447&find=unread
Lucky for you he was a good hearted miner.

Also, I don't have to put a signature on my bio about the New Order, since it doesn't write so in the Code. It has to be updated I say!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Manny Moons
Determinor wrote
"Miners can beat you if they are at their keyboards and are organized..."
You just excluded over 99% of Eve miners.

Determinor wrote
"If I remember correctly, due to your sec status, you are bound to lose your ship when you undock at highsec."
You do not remember correctly.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Aleksa Mayhap
In reply to this post by Determinor
Determinor wrote
Miners can beat you if they are at their keyboards and are organized.
If miners are at their keyboards and organized, we've already won.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Determinor
You still try to take money from them. That's the reason why I don't support you guys. If you didn't take money from them as mining permits, everyone would try to be on their keyboards to prove that, and that's what you want right? Then why do you have to take money from the miners who are at their keyboards and are organized?

Tell me honestly: Would you bump or gank a mining OP that responded immediately at local to your call, read your code, but only refused to pay it with their reasoning and with polite language? If the answer is yes, what seperates them from the AFK and botting miners? The red pen list?
You either need to remove getting payment from the non AFK miners or make it rewarding to be a non AFK miner. At this moment, the rewards of paying is not so rewarding to the miner that already did everything on the Code EXCEPT the part of paying for a mining permit.
Please understand that the posts I'm writing is exempt from emotions, such as rage, anger, fear, fanatism, hate against bots, etc...
At least that's how I'm trying to write.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Sarah Achassia
28,000 ISK per day. 150m3 of veldspar

That is the cost of a mining permit.

No. When someone isn't willing to consider a token payment, a meagre 10 million, it is a sign that the lust for ISK is strong within them.

It shall come to pass, that ISK devil will surely whisper in their ear and they will succumb to temptation and become that against which we fight.

And so, we administer chastisement, to those who do not purchase their permit, in the hope that in the future, when the serpent speaks, they will not be seduced.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Galaxy_Pig
Preach it!
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Agent Trask
In reply to this post by Determinor
Excuse me?

He purchased a Skiff, a t2 mining exhumer. He had ISK.

He did have the permit. If he had greeted the Knights, and had the line in his bio, he would not have been attacked. It was fortunate for him that he was playing properly, and had a full tank, a permit tank, and was not AFK.

If the Knights in question had brought the required number of Cats to gank him, James might have had to pay restitution for this cascading fail. Good luck was had all around, I guess. Some Knights learned to do their job better, and the miner properly affixed his bumpersticker.


As for low security status ... vulture mercs outside of the dock rarely get a shot off at an outgoing Cat. I have seen exactly one get caught off the dock by other players ( and that was not enough to prevent a Mack gank ).

CONCORD isn't able to stop us if we have a proper instant warp out marked for that station.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Romeo Charlie
To put it simply, we're that awesome that it's a only a matter of time before we have the whole of high-sec under our control. And when we do, our methods will be so refined that scenarios like suggested by the OP will be a very rare occurrence.  
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Rennseslear
In reply to this post by Determinor
upon reading this attempt at reason by Determinor, i wanted to "tell him honestly" as per his request.
This game has a heirarchy, it has a monetary system, it has a vast diversity to its people.
It is not the real world, but it was created by the real world, by people living in the real world, and so, it follows the laws of the lands.
IF you are a miner, you enjoy mining, you are consistantly at your keyboard, and you are smart enough to find this website prior to becoming a wreck of your former self, then i believe you should understand exactly why ALL miners pay for the permit.
In America, we pay taxes.  We pay in to a fund that helps the people who are genuinely less fortunate get assistance to maintain a lifestyle that keeps them from digging in trash cans to find something to eat.  There is no perfect way to separate the good from the bad.
When you pay for your permit, you insure that someone is working very hard to keep cheaters from taking isk out of YOUR wallet. You pay to give someone else the means to help YOU make the most of YOUR time playing this fantastic game.  Lets say that you mine a million units of a popular ore, gas, etc. in one day.  One ganked botter could mean as much as a 1 isk difference in the market price that day. Isk that YOU would have in your wallet, should he not be there that day.
With 365 days in a year, and The Code being enforced all 365 of them, you stand to make a profit of 355 MILLION ISK more than you would, if The Code were not in place.
I am not a rich man, but if someone told me that they would actively help me as part of their daily goal in-game life to make me 355 million isk extra in a year......
 I   WOULD   THANK   THEM!.
Ewe Oar Sofa King We Tall Did
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Where MinerBumping can lead (eventually)

Audrik Villalona
In reply to this post by Determinor
Any new miner can easily earn 10m from veldspar in the starting system with his venture, in an hour or two. So, any beginning miner can easily afford the permit before leaving the starting system--which is somewhat of an interference free zone.  Now , obviously the New Order still rules over the starting systems, as they are part of highsec, but I think you raise a valid point.  Perhaps it should be made explicit in the code that new characters, in the starter systems only, are given temporary leave to mine veldspar to raise the 10m they need to buy a permit.  Otherwise, they could use 1m of the money from doing a few missions to buy a 1 day pass and mine elsewhere, easily earning 10m in under a day.

Other than this point, the remainder of your post is nothing but fever dreams and heroin visions, in which you twist the coming paradise into a horrific dystopia.  Lift yourself back into clearheadedness, my poor confused friend.